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純精神分析與心理治療的區別

October 25, 2011

純精神分析與心理治療的區別
Jacques-Alain Miller
雅克-艾倫、米勒

I. THE PSYCHOANALYSIS/PSYCHOTHEREAPY DISTINCTION
Shouldn’t I lift the burden I’ve placed on your shoulders – and on my own? I have in fact placed on us the weight of an insistent return, that of the difference between pure and applied psychoanalysis – applied, I should add, to therapy.

I.純精神分析/心理治療區別
難道我不應該背起我放到你們和我自己肩上的負擔?我事實上已經把迫切回歸的重量轉移到我們身上了。那就是純精神分析和應用精神分析之間的不同,我要補充的是,心理治療上的應用。
雄伯
純精神分析/心理治療的區別
難道我不應該減輕我放到你們和我自己肩上的負擔嗎?我事實上已經把迫切要求回歸到治療學的重量,放置到我們身上了。那是純精神分析和應用精神分析之間的差異的迫切要求,我要補充的是,那是要求回歸應用到治療學。
Lift—Take off or away by decreasing 減輕
lift the pressure 減輕壓力
to therapy 應該是銜接前面的return to therapy
that of the difference between pure and applied psychoanalysis 的that,指的是前面the weight of an insistent return to therapy
1. A RETURN

ENUNCIATION OF A DIAGNOSTIC
This return of ours was motivated by a state of affairs where the distinction appeared to me as unfinished, not fully considered, located, or posed. At the same time, the rapport between two opposing terms which are classical in psychoanalysis and beyond, even though a bit out of date, has produced an impediment, even some pain, and, we might say, a certain feeling of drift.
1.一種回歸
診斷宣言
我們的回歸是因為一些事件的情況,這便是這種區分對我而言是未完成的,沒有完全考慮清楚的,沒有完全定位的。同時,精神分析中兩個相對立的部分——經典的和超越的之間的聯繫,儘管有些過時,產生了些障礙,甚至是痛苦。我也許還是要說,這是一種一脈相承的連續的感覺。

雄伯
2. 我們從純粹精神分析到應用心理治療的這種回歸,動機是由於事情的狀態所引起。在這種狀態中, 這種區別對於我而言,是尚未完成的。沒有充分被考慮,被定位,或被提出。同時,這兩個相對述語之間的相互關係曾經產生一種阻礙,甚至是某種痛苦,以及某種的不穩定感,我們不妨這麼說。這兩個述語在精神分析,以及精神分析以外的領域,都是經典的,雖然有點過時。
3. Beyond 應該是指beyond psychoanalysis
4. This return of ours 的ours 應該是指our insistent return from pure psychoanalysis to applied therapy
5. , the rapport between two opposing terms 是指,這兩個相對述語之間的相互關係,而不是「經典的和超越的之間的聯繫」。Terms 是指pure psychoanalysis 及applied therapy
6.
7.
I have taken this into account. I have very seriously taken it into account.
However determined I’ve been, however I’ve posed it and supported it with evidence from all our classical works, I can only conceive of this return as the first step of a problem to resolve, as the enunciation of a diagnosis.
8. 我會認真嚴肅地考慮這個。
然而我下了一個決定,我提出它,並且從我們的傳統工作中拿出證據來支持它。我沒想到的這個回歸是作為重新解決問題的第一步,作為一個診斷學的宣言。
雄伯
我曾經考慮過這個;我曾經非常嚴肅地考慮這個。 無論我曾經多麼有決心,無論我用什麼方式提出它,並且用我們所有的經典著作找出的證據支援它,我僅能構想這種回歸,作為解決困難的第一步,作為一種診斷的表述。
Have taken this into account 完成式,表示曾經,經驗,而不是「會」
However 在此是連接詞,不是副詞,翻為「無論如何」或「用某種方法」,不是「然而」
Only 是「僅僅」,而不是「沒有」

I’ve made a worthy attempt to capture it. A worthy attempt, to my mind, not institutionally or through classification – this is not how the problem is posed – but by involving what conforms to the dynamic among psychoanalysts.

我做了一些有用的嘗試來捕捉它,一種對我的思想有意義的嘗試,並不是制度上的,也不是通過分類,這些都不是問題形成的原因。而這個原因涉及到適應精神分析中的動力因素。
雄伯
為了表達這種診斷的表述,我曾經做過一個有價值的嘗試。依照我的看法,這是一種有價值的嘗試,因為我不是從制度,或是從學科分類層面來嘗試—這並不是問題要被解決的方式—-而是這種嘗試牽涉到,跟精神分析師的工作動力相一致的東西。
Capture—Succeed in representing or expressing something intangible 成功地呈現或表達某件抽象的東西
Capture an idea, 表達一個觀念,capture the essence of Spring 表達春天的本質
To my mind—-in my opinion 依照我的意見
Classification 指psychoanalysis 與psychotherapy 的學科分類
How 是「方法」不是「原因」
Psychoanalysts 是精神分析師,不是精神分析

My focus was on psychoanalysis as practice. I expected and worked to find a strategy there which, if not the best, would at least have a chance of coping with the issue for a short while. These are the considerations I bring to you today.
我關注的是作為一種實踐的精神分析。我希望並且努力在這兒找到一種策略。如果不是最好的,至少給予一個機會能在短期內得到一個論點。這些思考就是我今天要帶給你們的。
雄伯
if not the best, 這個策略即使不是最好,
if 不完全都是表條件condition,有時是表讓步concessio。例如,
This is a very good car, if not the best. 這是很好的一部汽車,雖然不是最好的汽車。
I have seldom told lies, if ever. 我很少說過謊言,即使是有的話。
If it rains tomorrow,I will still go。即使明天下雨,我依舊要去。

ANCHORING POINT
I will speak a little later from my perspective against the notion of an anchoring point. We are justified in keeping our distance from the constant fixing that we see in what we call, using Lacan’s metaphorical illustration, the anchoring point, which hearkens back to a very precise signifying mechanism.
錨定點
之後將說一些從我錨定點想法中預想。我們有理由保持一種距離——從我們的稱呼中對我們看到的東西進行持續地修正,用拉康的隱喻舉例,那就是錨定點,能通過回到一個非常精確的指代機制。
雄伯
錨定點
稍後,我將從我的觀點談論我反對錨定點的這個觀念。。我們有理由跟這個固定的這個點,敬而遠之。我們看到這個點,讓我們使用拉康的比喻來說,在我們所謂的錨定點。這個錨定點渴望遵照的是一個非常明確的指代機制。
Against 是意思是「反對」。拉康反對錨定典的觀念,把它當作是病徵。
Hearken back to—to desire to follow or reach , listen to 渴望遵照或獲的,傾聽
拉康反對「遵照的是一個非常明確的指代機制。

Nevertheless, what I stirred up here, what I tried to plot simply and definitively, involves something of an anchoring point; that is to say it gave me a point of view that I haven’t quite captured or centered on, even if I see clearly how it developed. Today I am going to try to communicate to you, in the simplest way, leaving what is perhaps on the order of its construction for later.
但是,我這裡要指出的是,我嘗試著簡要而概括性地提出的,涉及到錨定點的問題。就是說它給了我一種觀點,我沒有完全捉住和注意到它,即使我很清楚地看到它是如何發展的。今天我要同你們用最簡單的方式交流,留下一些可能之後建構它的東西。
雄伯
但是,我這裡要鼓動的是,我嘗試著簡要而概括性地規劃的,涉及到錨定點的某件東西。就是說,它給了我一個我沒有完全理解和專注的觀點,即使我很清楚地看到,它是如何發展的。今天我要同你們用最簡單的方式交流,將或許是它的建構部分,留待以後再來處理。
Stir up—to make something more active, 鼓動
Plot– Devise the sequence of events 規劃
Grasp— Get the meaning of something理解
Focus on– Centre upon 專注
leaving what is perhaps on the order of its construction for later.其中的 what is perhaps on the order of its construction 是名詞子句,充當leaving 的受詞,leaving….for later 留待以後處理

The fact that the distinction between pure and applied psychoanalysis in therapy has not been made leads to some confusion, leads us to practical confusions, to the posing of false problems, and especially to false solutions which, briefly outlined, lead us to a certain number of complications in situating what we do in practice.
純精神分析和精神分析在心裡治療中的應用沒有讓我們迷惑,沒有讓我們產生實踐上的困惑,也沒有讓我們提出錯誤的問題,尤其是錯誤的解決方式。簡要地概括,也沒有讓我在實踐中遇到更複雜的情景。雄伯
在治療學,純精神分析與應用精神分析始終並沒有區分得很清楚。這個事實導致某種的混淆,導致我們在實踐時的混淆,導致虛假問題的提出,特別是導致虛假的解決方法。簡要地概括,這些解決方法,導致我們在定位我們實踐時的作為,產生某些的併發症。
that the distinction between pure and applied psychoanalysis in therapy has not been made 是名詞子句,充當the fact的同位語。
這個句子的主詞是the fact ,動詞是 leads
which, briefly outlined, lead us to a certain number of complications in situating what we do in practice.
是形容詞子句,修飾前面的solutions ,which 指的是solutions
briefly outlined 是過去分詞片語,是when they are briefly outlined. 簡要地概括這些解決方法

Again we must situate the truly important confusion in its place. What is it? It is not so much the confusion between pure psychoanalysis and psychoanalysis applied to therapy. This confusion has a limited range, because even if we acknowledge that they are different, they are still part of psychoanalysis. The confusion which is truly important is distinguishing, in the name of therapy, what is psychoanalysis and what is not.
我們再把真正的困惑置於這種情景下。 它是什麼?純精神分析和精神分析在治療中的應用不是太大的困惑。這個困惑是有範圍限制的,因為我們即便承認他們有區別,他們仍然是精神分析的一部分,真正重要困惑是,在各種治療中區分哪些是精神分析,哪些不是。
雄伯
而且,我們必須將這種取代我們在精神分析實踐時的作為的真正很重要的混淆,尋找出來。那個混淆是什麼? 那個混淆甚至不是純精神分析與應用到治療學的精神分析之間的混淆。這種混淆範圍有限。因為即使我們承認,它們並不相同, 它們仍然是精神分析的一部分。真正重要的混淆是,憑藉治療的名義,要區別精神分析的內涵與非精神分析的內涵。
Again—besides 意思是「除外」,而不是「再」。
In its places 是指 in place of what we do in practice 取代我們在精神分析實踐時的作為
Not so much—not even 甚至不是
例句: He cannot so much write his own name. 他甚至連他自己的名字都不會寫。
THE ESSENTIAL STAKE
If we look closely at the objective, it is not necessary for psychoanalysis, in its dimension or its usage or its therapeutic care, to be lured, kicked around, and even mortified by the kind of non-psychoanalysis glorified with the name of psychotherapy. What we need is for psychoanalysis applied to therapy to remain psychoanalytical and be proud of its psychoanalytical identity. In order to fix these ideas, I will write it thus: pure Y / applied Y // Y therapy
如果我們能近距離地客觀地看待精神分析,那麼再他的維度或者他的實用性或者是他的治療關注上,通過對心理治療的名字非精神分析式地美化而使得精神分析成為一種誘惑,被排斥和受屈辱都是不必要的。我需要的是保留精神分析在心理治療中的位置,並為精神分析認同而自豪。
為了修正這些觀點,我寫下如是的:
純精神分析/應用精神分析//精神分析治療
雄伯
基本的重點
假如我們仔細觀看這個目標,精神分析未必需要被這種非精神分析所引誘,到處排斥,甚至被羞辱。這種非精神分析憑藉精神治療學的名義,受到大力推崇。而精神分析在它的治療照顧中,卻受限於它的維度及它的用途。我們所需要的是,讓被應用到治療學的精神分析始終保持是精神分析,並且以它認同精神分析感到自豪。為了修正這些觀念,我寫下如是的:純精神分析/應用精神分析//精神分析治療
If we look closely at the objective 的objective 在這裡是名詞,意思是「目標」,不是副詞「客觀地」
Closely 的意思是「仔細地」carefully ,而不是「近距離地」

I should note that the difference I have signaled between pure and applied psychoanalysis was made to reverberate upon the difference between the two with regard to psychotherapy.
我應該指出我標示出純精神分析和應用精神分析的差異正是這兩者對待心理治療態度相異的反應。
雄伯
我應該提醒,我標示出純精神分析和應用精神分析的區分。這種區分之所以產生,是為了回應關於精神治療學,這兩者之間的區分。
My formula had the goal of demanding too much of psychoanalysis applied to therapy; that is to say it demanded that it be psychoanalysis, that it not give up being psychoanalysis and, under the pretext of therapy, let itself be drawn into overstepping this limit, this difference.
我的公式的目的是對精神分析在治療中的應用要求。就是說要求它是精神分析,不能放棄成為精神分析,在治療的藉口下,讓它自己超出這個限制,這個區別。
雄伯
我的公式的目的,是要嚴格要求被應用到治療學的精神分析。也就是說,它要求它應該是精神分析;它不應該放棄成為精神分析,並且,不應該在治療的藉口下,讓它自己被吸引跨越這個限制,這個區別。
it demanded that it be psychoanalysis,= it demanded that it (should) be psychoanalysis
It demanded that it not give up being psychoanalysis
= it demanded that it (should) not give up being psychoanalysis
and, under the pretext of therapy, let itself be drawn into overstepping this limit, this difference.
= it demanded that it (should) not give up being psychoanalysis
and, under the pretext of therapy, let itself be drawn into overstepping this limit, this difference.
= and, it demanded that it should not, under the pretext of therapy, let itself be drawn into overstepping this limit, this difference.
以上的demanded 句型,帶有假設法的祈使意涵imperative,附屬子句的should,時常被省略,保留原形動詞。翻譯時,應該將「祈使」意涵翻譯出來。

In the same vein, it seems that the essential stake – the essential stake of the part we play today – is to verify that psychoanalysis applied to therapy remains psychoanalysis, that it is the role of the psychoanalyst to ensure that it is psychoanalysis as such when it is applied.
相同的一點是,似乎這種基本的支撐是我們今天要討論的一部分,是為了證實治療應用的精神分析仍然是精神分析。那便是分析家的角色是為了確保精神分析在應用的時候仍然保持不變。
雄伯
相同的性質是,似乎這種基本的重點—我們今天扮演的重點—是為了確認,治療應用的精神分析仍然是精神分析。分析家的角色是要確保,精神分析在應用的時候仍然保持是精神分析。
Vein– A distinctive style or manner 明顯的風格或方式
Stake—an important part or share in a business重點

I imagine the agreement made on these elementary premises. The task is now to reinstate in the profession the difference between psychoanalysis as such, pure or applied, and psychotherapy.
我想像這些基本的前提是公認的。現在的任務是返回到專業的純精神分析,應用精神分析和心理治療間的不同
雄伯。
我想像,這些基本的前提將會成為一種共識。現在的任務是將精神分析本身,無論它是純精神分析,或應用精神分析,它們和心理治療間的差異,應該被恢復到這個專業裡。
I imagine the agreement made on these elementary premises.
=I imagine the agreement on these elementary premises will be made.
=I imagine that we will make an agreement on these elementary premises.
我想像,這些基本的前提將會成為一種共識。

The task is now to reinstate in the profession the difference between psychoanalysis as such, pure or applied, and psychotherapy.
reinstate 的受詞是the difference between psychoanalysis as such, pure or applied, and psychotherapy.
pure or applied,= whether it is pure psychoanalysis or applied psychoanalysis
無論它是純精神分析,或應用精神分析
例句: Rain or shine, I will go. = Whether it rains or shines, I will go.
無論晴雨,我都要去。
Everyone is welcome, rich or poor, young or old, male or female. , young or old。
人人都受歡迎,無論貧富,男女,老幼

32hsiung@pchome.com.tw
https://springhero.wordpress.com

Jacques-Alain Miller
雅克-艾倫、米勒

I. THE PSYCHOANALYSIS/PSYCHOTHEREAPY DISTINCTION
Shouldn’t I lift the burden I’ve placed on your shoulders – and on my own? I have in fact placed on us the weight of an insistent return, that of the difference between pure and applied psychoanalysis – applied, I should add, to therapy.

I.純精神分析/心理治療區別
難道我不應該背起我放到你們和我自己肩上的負擔?我事實上已經把迫切回歸的重量轉移到我們身上了。那就是純精神分析和應用精神分析之間的不同,我要補充的是,心理治療上的應用。
雄伯
純精神分析/心理治療的區別
難道我不應該減輕我放到你們和我自己肩上的負擔嗎?我事實上已經把迫切要求回歸到治療學的重量,放置到我們身上了。那是純精神分析和應用精神分析之間的差異的迫切要求,我要補充的是,那是要求回歸應用到治療學。
Lift—Take off or away by decreasing 減輕
lift the pressure 減輕壓力
to therapy 應該是銜接前面的return to therapy
that of the difference between pure and applied psychoanalysis 的that,指的是前面the weight of an insistent return to therapy
9. A RETURN

ENUNCIATION OF A DIAGNOSTIC
This return of ours was motivated by a state of affairs where the distinction appeared to me as unfinished, not fully considered, located, or posed. At the same time, the rapport between two opposing terms which are classical in psychoanalysis and beyond, even though a bit out of date, has produced an impediment, even some pain, and, we might say, a certain feeling of drift.
1.一種回歸
診斷宣言
我們的回歸是因為一些事件的情況,這便是這種區分對我而言是未完成的,沒有完全考慮清楚的,沒有完全定位的。同時,精神分析中兩個相對立的部分——經典的和超越的之間的聯繫,儘管有些過時,產生了些障礙,甚至是痛苦。我也許還是要說,這是一種一脈相承的連續的感覺。

雄伯
10. 我們從純粹精神分析到應用心理治療的這種回歸,動機是由於事情的狀態所引起。在這種狀態中, 這種區別對於我而言,是尚未完成的。沒有充分被考慮,被定位,或被提出。同時,這兩個相對述語之間的相互關係曾經產生一種阻礙,甚至是某種痛苦,以及某種的不穩定感,我們不妨這麼說。這兩個述語在精神分析,以及精神分析以外的領域,都是經典的,雖然有點過時。
11. Beyond 應該是指beyond psychoanalysis
12. This return of ours 的ours 應該是指our insistent return from pure psychoanalysis to applied therapy
13. , the rapport between two opposing terms 是指,這兩個相對述語之間的相互關係,而不是「經典的和超越的之間的聯繫」。Terms 是指pure psychoanalysis 及applied therapy
14.
15.
I have taken this into account. I have very seriously taken it into account.
However determined I’ve been, however I’ve posed it and supported it with evidence from all our classical works, I can only conceive of this return as the first step of a problem to resolve, as the enunciation of a diagnosis.
16. 我會認真嚴肅地考慮這個。
然而我下了一個決定,我提出它,並且從我們的傳統工作中拿出證據來支持它。我沒想到的這個回歸是作為重新解決問題的第一步,作為一個診斷學的宣言。
雄伯
我曾經考慮過這個;我曾經非常嚴肅地考慮這個。 無論我曾經多麼有決心,無論我用什麼方式提出它,並且用我們所有的經典著作找出的證據支援它,我僅能構想這種回歸,作為解決困難的第一步,作為一種診斷的表述。
Have taken this into account 完成式,表示曾經,經驗,而不是「會」
However 在此是連接詞,不是副詞,翻為「無論如何」或「用某種方法」,不是「然而」
Only 是「僅僅」,而不是「沒有」

I’ve made a worthy attempt to capture it. A worthy attempt, to my mind, not institutionally or through classification – this is not how the problem is posed – but by involving what conforms to the dynamic among psychoanalysts.

我做了一些有用的嘗試來捕捉它,一種對我的思想有意義的嘗試,並不是制度上的,也不是通過分類,這些都不是問題形成的原因。而這個原因涉及到適應精神分析中的動力因素。
雄伯
為了表達這種診斷的表述,我曾經做過一個有價值的嘗試。依照我的看法,這是一種有價值的嘗試,因為我不是從制度,或是從學科分類層面來嘗試—這並不是問題要被解決的方式—-而是這種嘗試牽涉到,跟精神分析師的工作動力相一致的東西。
Capture—Succeed in representing or expressing something intangible 成功地呈現或表達某件抽象的東西
Capture an idea, 表達一個觀念,capture the essence of Spring 表達春天的本質
To my mind—-in my opinion 依照我的意見
Classification 指psychoanalysis 與psychotherapy 的學科分類
How 是「方法」不是「原因」
Psychoanalysts 是精神分析師,不是精神分析

My focus was on psychoanalysis as practice. I expected and worked to find a strategy there which, if not the best, would at least have a chance of coping with the issue for a short while. These are the considerations I bring to you today.
我關注的是作為一種實踐的精神分析。我希望並且努力在這兒找到一種策略。如果不是最好的,至少給予一個機會能在短期內得到一個論點。這些思考就是我今天要帶給你們的。
雄伯
if not the best, 這個策略即使不是最好,
if 不完全都是表條件condition,有時是表讓步concessio。例如,
This is a very good car, if not the best. 這是很好的一部汽車,雖然不是最好的汽車。
I have seldom told lies, if ever. 我很少說過謊言,即使是有的話。
If it rains tomorrow,I will still go。即使明天下雨,我依舊要去。

ANCHORING POINT
I will speak a little later from my perspective against the notion of an anchoring point. We are justified in keeping our distance from the constant fixing that we see in what we call, using Lacan’s metaphorical illustration, the anchoring point, which hearkens back to a very precise signifying mechanism.
錨定點
之後將說一些從我錨定點想法中預想。我們有理由保持一種距離——從我們的稱呼中對我們看到的東西進行持續地修正,用拉康的隱喻舉例,那就是錨定點,能通過回到一個非常精確的指代機制。
雄伯
錨定點
稍後,我將從我的觀點談論我反對錨定點的這個觀念。。我們有理由跟這個固定的這個點,敬而遠之。我們看到這個點,讓我們使用拉康的比喻來說,在我們所謂的錨定點。這個錨定點渴望遵照的是一個非常明確的指代機制。
Against 是意思是「反對」。拉康反對錨定典的觀念,把它當作是病徵。
Hearken back to—to desire to follow or reach , listen to 渴望遵照或獲的,傾聽
拉康反對「遵照的是一個非常明確的指代機制。

Nevertheless, what I stirred up here, what I tried to plot simply and definitively, involves something of an anchoring point; that is to say it gave me a point of view that I haven’t quite captured or centered on, even if I see clearly how it developed. Today I am going to try to communicate to you, in the simplest way, leaving what is perhaps on the order of its construction for later.
但是,我這裡要指出的是,我嘗試著簡要而概括性地提出的,涉及到錨定點的問題。就是說它給了我一種觀點,我沒有完全捉住和注意到它,即使我很清楚地看到它是如何發展的。今天我要同你們用最簡單的方式交流,留下一些可能之後建構它的東西。
雄伯
但是,我這裡要鼓動的是,我嘗試著簡要而概括性地規劃的,涉及到錨定點的某件東西。就是說,它給了我一個我沒有完全理解和專注的觀點,即使我很清楚地看到,它是如何發展的。今天我要同你們用最簡單的方式交流,將或許是它的建構部分,留待以後再來處理。
Stir up—to make something more active, 鼓動
Plot– Devise the sequence of events 規劃
Grasp— Get the meaning of something理解
Focus on– Centre upon 專注
leaving what is perhaps on the order of its construction for later.其中的 what is perhaps on the order of its construction 是名詞子句,充當leaving 的受詞,leaving….for later 留待以後處理

The fact that the distinction between pure and applied psychoanalysis in therapy has not been made leads to some confusion, leads us to practical confusions, to the posing of false problems, and especially to false solutions which, briefly outlined, lead us to a certain number of complications in situating what we do in practice.
純精神分析和精神分析在心裡治療中的應用沒有讓我們迷惑,沒有讓我們產生實踐上的困惑,也沒有讓我們提出錯誤的問題,尤其是錯誤的解決方式。簡要地概括,也沒有讓我在實踐中遇到更複雜的情景。雄伯
在治療學,純精神分析與應用精神分析始終並沒有區分得很清楚。這個事實導致某種的混淆,導致我們在實踐時的混淆,導致虛假問題的提出,特別是導致虛假的解決方法。簡要地概括,這些解決方法,導致我們在定位我們實踐時的作為,產生某些的併發症。
that the distinction between pure and applied psychoanalysis in therapy has not been made 是名詞子句,充當the fact的同位語。
這個句子的主詞是the fact ,動詞是 leads
which, briefly outlined, lead us to a certain number of complications in situating what we do in practice.
是形容詞子句,修飾前面的solutions ,which 指的是solutions
briefly outlined 是過去分詞片語,是when they are briefly outlined. 簡要地概括這些解決方法

Again we must situate the truly important confusion in its place. What is it? It is not so much the confusion between pure psychoanalysis and psychoanalysis applied to therapy. This confusion has a limited range, because even if we acknowledge that they are different, they are still part of psychoanalysis. The confusion which is truly important is distinguishing, in the name of therapy, what is psychoanalysis and what is not.
我們再把真正的困惑置於這種情景下。 它是什麼?純精神分析和精神分析在治療中的應用不是太大的困惑。這個困惑是有範圍限制的,因為我們即便承認他們有區別,他們仍然是精神分析的一部分,真正重要困惑是,在各種治療中區分哪些是精神分析,哪些不是。
雄伯
而且,我們必須將這種取代我們在精神分析實踐時的作為的真正很重要的混淆,尋找出來。那個混淆是什麼? 那個混淆甚至不是純精神分析與應用到治療學的精神分析之間的混淆。這種混淆範圍有限。因為即使我們承認,它們並不相同, 它們仍然是精神分析的一部分。真正重要的混淆是,憑藉治療的名義,要區別精神分析的內涵與非精神分析的內涵。
Again—besides 意思是「除外」,而不是「再」。
In its places 是指 in place of what we do in practice 取代我們在精神分析實踐時的作為
Not so much—not even 甚至不是
例句: He cannot so much write his own name. 他甚至連他自己的名字都不會寫。
THE ESSENTIAL STAKE
If we look closely at the objective, it is not necessary for psychoanalysis, in its dimension or its usage or its therapeutic care, to be lured, kicked around, and even mortified by the kind of non-psychoanalysis glorified with the name of psychotherapy. What we need is for psychoanalysis applied to therapy to remain psychoanalytical and be proud of its psychoanalytical identity. In order to fix these ideas, I will write it thus: pure Y / applied Y // Y therapy
如果我們能近距離地客觀地看待精神分析,那麼再他的維度或者他的實用性或者是他的治療關注上,通過對心理治療的名字非精神分析式地美化而使得精神分析成為一種誘惑,被排斥和受屈辱都是不必要的。我需要的是保留精神分析在心理治療中的位置,並為精神分析認同而自豪。
為了修正這些觀點,我寫下如是的:
純精神分析/應用精神分析//精神分析治療
雄伯
基本的重點
假如我們仔細觀看這個目標,精神分析未必需要被這種非精神分析所引誘,到處排斥,甚至被羞辱。這種非精神分析憑藉精神治療學的名義,受到大力推崇。而精神分析在它的治療照顧中,卻受限於它的維度及它的用途。我們所需要的是,讓被應用到治療學的精神分析始終保持是精神分析,並且以它認同精神分析感到自豪。為了修正這些觀念,我寫下如是的:純精神分析/應用精神分析//精神分析治療
If we look closely at the objective 的objective 在這裡是名詞,意思是「目標」,不是副詞「客觀地」
Closely 的意思是「仔細地」carefully ,而不是「近距離地」

I should note that the difference I have signaled between pure and applied psychoanalysis was made to reverberate upon the difference between the two with regard to psychotherapy.
我應該指出我標示出純精神分析和應用精神分析的差異正是這兩者對待心理治療態度相異的反應。
雄伯
我應該提醒,我標示出純精神分析和應用精神分析的區分。這種區分之所以產生,是為了回應關於精神治療學,這兩者之間的區分。
My formula had the goal of demanding too much of psychoanalysis applied to therapy; that is to say it demanded that it be psychoanalysis, that it not give up being psychoanalysis and, under the pretext of therapy, let itself be drawn into overstepping this limit, this difference.
我的公式的目的是對精神分析在治療中的應用要求。就是說要求它是精神分析,不能放棄成為精神分析,在治療的藉口下,讓它自己超出這個限制,這個區別。
雄伯
我的公式的目的,是要嚴格要求被應用到治療學的精神分析。也就是說,它要求它應該是精神分析;它不應該放棄成為精神分析,並且,不應該在治療的藉口下,讓它自己被吸引跨越這個限制,這個區別。
it demanded that it be psychoanalysis,= it demanded that it (should) be psychoanalysis
It demanded that it not give up being psychoanalysis
= it demanded that it (should) not give up being psychoanalysis
and, under the pretext of therapy, let itself be drawn into overstepping this limit, this difference.
= it demanded that it (should) not give up being psychoanalysis
and, under the pretext of therapy, let itself be drawn into overstepping this limit, this difference.
= and, it demanded that it should not, under the pretext of therapy, let itself be drawn into overstepping this limit, this difference.
以上的demanded 句型,帶有假設法的祈使意涵imperative,附屬子句的should,時常被省略,保留原形動詞。翻譯時,應該將「祈使」意涵翻譯出來。

In the same vein, it seems that the essential stake – the essential stake of the part we play today – is to verify that psychoanalysis applied to therapy remains psychoanalysis, that it is the role of the psychoanalyst to ensure that it is psychoanalysis as such when it is applied.
相同的一點是,似乎這種基本的支撐是我們今天要討論的一部分,是為了證實治療應用的精神分析仍然是精神分析。那便是分析家的角色是為了確保精神分析在應用的時候仍然保持不變。
雄伯
相同的性質是,似乎這種基本的重點—我們今天扮演的重點—是為了確認,治療應用的精神分析仍然是精神分析。分析家的角色是要確保,精神分析在應用的時候仍然保持是精神分析。
Vein– A distinctive style or manner 明顯的風格或方式
Stake—an important part or share in a business重點

I imagine the agreement made on these elementary premises. The task is now to reinstate in the profession the difference between psychoanalysis as such, pure or applied, and psychotherapy.
我想像這些基本的前提是公認的。現在的任務是返回到專業的純精神分析,應用精神分析和心理治療間的不同
雄伯。
我想像,這些基本的前提將會成為一種共識。現在的任務是將精神分析本身,無論它是純精神分析,或應用精神分析,它們和心理治療間的差異,應該被恢復到這個專業裡。
I imagine the agreement made on these elementary premises.
=I imagine the agreement on these elementary premises will be made.
=I imagine that we will make an agreement on these elementary premises.
我想像,這些基本的前提將會成為一種共識。

The task is now to reinstate in the profession the difference between psychoanalysis as such, pure or applied, and psychotherapy.
reinstate 的受詞是the difference between psychoanalysis as such, pure or applied, and psychotherapy.
pure or applied,= whether it is pure psychoanalysis or applied psychoanalysis
無論它是純精神分析,或應用精神分析
例句: Rain or shine, I will go. = Whether it rains or shines, I will go.
無論晴雨,我都要去。
Everyone is welcome, rich or poor, young or old, male or female. , young or old。
人人都受歡迎,無論貧富,男女,老幼

32hsiung@pchome.com.tw
https://springhero.wordpress.com

精神分析技術的基本原則 p6

June 14, 2011

Fundamentals of Psychoanalytic Technique
精神分析技術的基本原則 p6

BRUCE FINK
布魯斯 芬克

1
Listening and Hearing
傾聽與聽到

P6

Listening for all this makes the analyst constitutionally incapable of hearing a great many things that the analysand says–first and foremost slips of the tongue, which, as they are often nonsensical, do not immediately reflect upon the analyst and thus are generally ignored by her.

彭譯
以這種方式來傾聽,會使的分析師根本無力去聽分析者說出來的許多東西—其中最重要的是說溜嘴,由於說溜嘴往往沒有意思,分析師無法立即映照出些什麼,因此通常都被忽略了。

雄伯
listen for 的意思是「注意聽,為了要確定聽到的內容」 to pay attention so as to be sure of hearing

例句
Listen for the moment when the music changes. 注意聽,聽音樂何時響起。

listen for all this 的 all this 是指前段所說When operating in the imaginary dimension of experience, the analyst is focused on her own self-image as reflected back to her by the analysand and hears what the analysand says only insofar as it reflects upon her.(當分析師在經驗的想像維度運時,她所關注的是由分析者所映照回來的自我意象,而分析者所說的話,她也聽到反映出自己的部分。)

constitutional的意思是「身心有關的」of a person’s body‘mind
a constitutional weakness 則是「身心的弱點」

constitutionally incapable of hearing a great many things
身心體質上無法聽到許多事情(彭譯為「根本無力去聽分析者說出來的許多東西」) 「身心體質上」與「根本」有段距離

first and foremost slips of the tongue, which, as they are often nonsensical, do not immediately reflect upon the analyst

which 是關係代名詞,代替slips of the tongue,充當do not immediately reflect upon the analyst 的主詞。彭譯:「其中最重要的是說溜嘴,由於說溜嘴往往沒有意思,分析師無法立即映照出些什麼。」analyst 在句子原來是受詞,現在變為主詞,理論上句子應該改為被動語態。

slips of the tongue do not immediately reflect upon the analyst「說溜嘴並沒有立即反映在分析者身上」,直接照英文的主動語態翻譯不行嗎?

When the analyst is operating primarily within the imaginary dimension or register, everything that cannot easily be compared with her own experiences (her own sense of self–in short, her own “ego,” as I shall use the term) goes unattended to and, indeed, often remains simply unheard?

彭譯:
當分析師主要是在想像的維度上運作或記注,那些無法簡單地和她自己的經驗(她的自我感—簡言之,她的「自我」ego,我會繼續使用這個術語)相比較的一切,就不會被注意到,事實上,往往連聽都沒有聽到。

within the imaginary dimension or register「在想像界的維度之內」,within是「之內」,不是「之上」。Imaginary 應該是指拉康的三個維度:「象徵界」the symbolic, 「想像界」the imaginary,「真實界」the real。

go unattended to 「沒有受到注意」的主詞,是第二行的everything,that cannot easily be compared with her own experiences 是形容詞子句,修飾everything

indeed 的意思是「的確」,in fact 才是「事實上」

Everything often remains simply unheard? 是「有聽,但是沒有聽進去」,不是「連聽都沒有聽到」。

布魯斯、芬克對於這一段,自己提供一個注釋:

7 Lacan (2006, p. 595) referred to this as the “dyadic relation,” by which he meant that the analytic relationship is construed in such cases as nothing more than a relationship between two egos.

彭譯:
拉岡稱之為「二元關係」,意即將分析關係解釋為不過是兩個自我之間的關係。

雄伯:
拉岡心目中理想的分析關係應該是「四元關係」quadratic relation。也就是分析者,分析者的無意識,分析師,分析師的無意識四元關係的交叉互動。

A supervisee of mine once let a patient break off his therapy after a slight lifting of his deep depression.
彭譯:
我督導的一位治療師,曾經讓某個極度憂悒的病人,在病況稍微好轉之後就中斷治療。

When I asked her why she had not tried to keep him in therapy to see if his depression could be further dissipated, she explained that it seemed to her that there were good reasons to think life depressing. Isn’t some depression, she retorted, a sensible response to life in our times?

彭譯:
我問它,怎麼不試著讓他繼續治療,看看憂悒的狀況能否進一步改善,她的解釋是,她覺得人生本來就是令人沮喪—她反駁說,難道些微的憂悒不是對我們這個時代的生命處境的一種合理反應嗎?

雄伯:
there were good reasons to think life depressing
「認為人生是令人沮喪,是具有充分的理由。」彭譯漏「good reasons」

坦白說,分析師的這個立場,雄伯還心有戚戚焉!

I pointed out to her that, regardless of her theoretical perspective on the matter, she seemed to be assuming that her patient’s reasons for being depressed were the same as hers (or what she believed to be hers), when his might well have been entirely different from hers.

彭譯:
我向她指出,不管她自己的理論觀點為何,她似乎預設了她的病人之所以憂悒,和她自己的理由(或者她相信自己的理由)是一樣的,儘管兩人的理由可能南轅北轍。

雄伯:
regardless of her theoretical perspective on the matter,
= whether her theoretical perspective on the matter is right or wrong
「無論她對於那件事情的理論上的觀點是對或錯」

Regardless of 的用法跟 in spite of 或 despite 不一樣。In spite of 及 despite 引導的內容,會跟主要字句內容相反。但是regardless of 引導的內容卻是中性的。

我舉例比較一下:
In spite of their low intelligence, I did my best to educate them.
= Though their intelligence was very low, I did my best to educate them.
儘管他們的智力很低,我依舊盡全力教育他們。

Regardless of their intelligence level, they are extremely difficult to educate.
= Whether their intelligence is high or low, they are extremely difficult to educate.
無論他們的智力是高或低,他們都極端難於教育。

when his might well have been entirely different from hers.
= when his reasons for being depressed might well have been entirely different from her reasons for being depressed。
雖然分析者沮喪的理由,跟分析師沮喪的理由,本來很有可能完全不同。

when 在這裏的解釋是「雖然」「儘管」although
例句:
She stopped trying, when she might have succeeded next time.
她停止嘗試,雖然她本來在下一次就會成功。

Might well 的意思「很有可能」to be likely to ,後面接完成式時態,代表對於過去的推測,所以我翻譯時,多加「本來」兩字,作為強調。

his 是所有格代名詞,充當句子的主詞。
例句
Mine is a big family. = My family is a big family.
我的家庭是一個大家庭。

In comparing his reasons to her own, she was excluding or failing to hear the ways in which they potentially differed.

彭譯:
當她把病人的理由和自己的(理由)相比時,她排除或不再聽到兩人之間可能存在的差異。

See Lacan’s ( 1 990) highly original take on sadness and depression as a moral failing or moral weakness, at times going as far as a “rejection of the unconscious” (p. 22), which is equivalent in this context to foreclosure (see Chapter 10).

請參閱拉岡高度原創性的觀點,他將悲傷和憂悒視為良心的失敗或良心的脆弱,有時甚至達到「對無意識的拒斥」的程度,而「對於無意識的拒斥」在此脈絡下相當於除權棄絕( foreclosure)。

雄伯:
布魯斯、芬克的這番注釋真是越描越黑,是學院派學者愛掉書袋的通病。

See Lacan’s ( 1 990) highly original take on sadness and depression as a moral failing or moral weakness

首先要注意的是,highly original take 的這個take,是名詞,不是動詞,可譯為「嘗試」any attempt or try ,而不是彭譯的「觀點」(見The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language )

棄絕贖回( foreclosure) 是拉岡介紹的一個術語,有位學者就以它作為一篇論文的題目,要詳說當然不容易。簡單說,就是對於無意識的拒斥,僅限於潛抑作用repression階段,通常發生在神經症患者neurosis,棄絕贖回foreclosure則是發生在精神病患psychosis 身上,狀況比較嚴重。

雄伯
32hsiung@pchome.com.tw
https://springhero.wordpress.com

精神分析技术的基本原则p19

June 14, 2011

P19
For example, a “hmm” sound I occasionalIy make to indicate simply that
I have heard something an analysand has just said is sometimes interpreted
as a skeptical sound by an analysand who is not too comfortable with the
perspective he has been propounding–that is, he believes I am caIling his perspective into question.

彭譯

舉例來說,某個我偶而用來表示為聽到分析者剛剛說了什麼的「嗯」,往往被某位對自己的看法覺得不太自在的分析者,詮釋成存疑的聲音—也就是說,他相信我認為他的看法有問題。

雄伯

I occasionalIy make 是形容詞子句,修飾前面的 a “humm” sound,應譯為:我偶爾發出的「嗯」聲音。而不是「偶而用來表示為」。

to ndicate simply「僅僅為了指示著」,不定詞片語,表目的,可改成 in order that I may indicate simply,,,,

that
that I have heard something 名詞子句,充當 indicate 的受詞

an analysand has just said 形容詞子句,前面省略一個that,修飾前面的something

is not too comfortable with the perspective 裏的is 的主詞是前面的a “hmm” sound (嗯的聲音)

perspective 「觀點」「看法」「視野」,大陸翻為「視角」。

an analysand who is not too comfortable with the perspective he has been propounding (對於他一直在提供考慮的觀點不太自在的受分析者)‘

is sometimes interpreted as a skeptical sound (有時被詮釋為可疑的聲音)
雄伯:聲音是「可疑」,人才會「存疑」。

that is, he believes I am caIling his perspective into question.

彭譯:也就是說,他相信我認為他的看法有問題。
雄伯:受分析者相信我是在懷疑他的觀點。

Call into question的意思是「懷疑」doubt

I often have had no such intent when making that particular sound, but the “hmm” is sufficiently ambiguous that an analysand who is suspicious of his own motives or perspectives can “hear” it as a request for him to explore the latter.

當我發出那個特定的聲音時,我往往沒有那樣的意思,但是這個「嗯」的聲音夠曖昧,因此懷疑自己的動機或看法的分析者,會將它「聽為」一種繼續探索下去的要求。

雄伯

when making that particular sound= when I am making that particular sound
當我正在發出那個特定的聲音時,(英文是進行式的省略,那個特定聲音指「嗯」的聲音。)

I often have had no such intent
我並沒有這樣的意圖 他he intended meaning of a communication。「意圖」intent跟「意思」meaning,有段距離。

an analysand who is suspicious of his own motives or perspectives
懷疑自己的動機或看法的分析者

can “hear” it as a request for him to explore the latter.
會將它「聽為」一種要他繼續探索後者的要求。

it 指的是前面的“ hmm ” 「嗯」的聲音。 彭譯漏譯「for him」及「the latter 」。him 指的是受分析者,而the latter 指的是his own motives or perspectives(自己的動機或看法)

He projects his own suspicions onto me, and his own suspicions can only come to the fore and be discussed when they are attributed to me first.

彭譯

他將自己的懷疑投射到我身上,而唯有先將它們投射到我這裏,他自己的懷疑才能夠浮上枱面,而且被拿出來討論。

雄伯

Only,,,when they are attributed to me first.

只有當這些懷疑首先被歸屬於我

they 指his own suspicions (他自己的懷疑),attribute to 歸屬於,或歸咎於

come to the fore 的意思「成為重要或受人注意」「扮演重要地位 」to be or become important and noticed by people; to play an important part,不是彭譯的「浮上枱面」

sufficiently、、、that 有點類似so、、、that 及such、、、that 的副詞子句,that 是連接詞,引導副詞子句,表示結果。有sufficiently 就不再用
so 或 such 。這是蠻特殊的句法。

雄伯
布魯斯 芬克 BRUCE FINK 的「精神分析技術的基本原則」 The Fundamentals of Psychoanalytic Technique,我才譯了幾頁,讀書會的C,就給我一份彭榮邦教授的翻譯手稿。由於彭教授的翻譯相當精確,而且文詞順暢,我再重譯似乎沒有什麼意義。於是臨機一動,改為注釋與對照。

雄伯譯
32hsiung@pchome.com.tw
https://springhero.wordpress.com

精神分析技術的基本原則 p6

June 14, 2011

Fundamentals of Psychoanalytic Technique
精神分析技術的基本原則 p6

BRUCE FINK
布魯斯 芬克

1
Listening and Hearing
傾聽與聽到

P 6
Deferring Understanding
彭譯
不急著理解

雄伯
Defer 的意思「拖延到後來」to delay until a later time。為什麼要將「理解拖延到後來呢?」因為自以為的「理解」,往往不是「真的理解」,反而因此封閉了對方無意識的「言說」speech 必須要說的話。

Within himself as well as in the external world, [the analyst] must always expect to find something new.
–Freud (J912b/J958, p. JJ7)

彭譯
無論是在他自己的內部或是外在的世界,(分析師)必須隨時期待發現新的事物。

As well as 的意思是「以及」,而不是「或」。不過中文的「無論、、、或」聽起來又有點兩者兼具的意味。英文其實也有這樣的用法。

There are trees on both sides of the road.
= There are trees on either side of the road.
= There are tree on this side of the road as well as the other side of the road.

這句的重點在something new ,為什麼總是要「新的事物」呢?「舊的事物」不行嗎?分析師如何在「他自己的內部」,或「外在的世界」「期待發現新的事物」呢?而且一兩次,還不夠,要「總是」!

The unconscious shuts down insofar as the analyst no longer “supports speech, ” because he already knows or thinks he knows what speech has to say.
–Lacan (2006, p. 359)
彭譯:
當分析師不再「支持說話」(support speech)時,無意識就擺工了,因為他已經知道或自以為知道病人要說什麼。
 拉岡 ( 2006, 359)
雄伯
Insofar as 是連接詞,表示「程度」to the degree,一般譯為「依據」或「隨著」,如insofar as I know it 「依據我我對它的瞭解」。

無意識的shut down 是「關閉」close firmly ,或是「罷工」?

he already knows or thinks he knows what speech has to say 句子裏的he,指分析師,has to say 的主詞,應該是speech 言說,而不是病人

“supports speech,” 「支持說話」,多加一個引號,因為speech 是指無意識的speech「說話」,跟病人要說什麼是兩回事。

If our attempts to “understand” ineluctably lead us to reduce what another
person is saying to what we think we already know (indeed, that could serve
as a pretty fair definition of understanding in general), one of the first steps we must take is to stop trying to understand so quickly.

彭譯
如果我們「理解」的嘗試,無可避免地讓我們將別人說的話,化約成為我們以為自己知的事情(實際上,以此來界定一般所謂的理解,似乎並無不妥),我們必須採取得步驟之一,就是不要這麼快就試著去理解。

雄伯
Ineluctably—by necessity 無可避免地,修飾lead ,不是修飾 understand
to understand 是不定詞片語,形容詞用法,修飾前面的our attempts

lead us to reduce 「導致或促成我們去化約」,「讓」聽起來像是「容許」permission 。

reduce「化約」,大陸習慣譯為「還原」

another person 是「另外一個人」,others 或other people 才是「別人」。

what another person is saying 「另外一個人正在說的話」。英文的子句是現在進行式,強調當下的動作。

Indeed 的意思「的確」it is true, in fact 才是「實際上」

that could serve as 「大可用來充當、、、」could 而不是can ,帶有虛擬及委婉的意味

a pretty fair definition of understanding in general
充當一般所謂「理解」的定義,真是恰到好處。

It is not by showing the analysand that we understand what he is saying that we build an alliance with him–especially given the fact that our attempts to show him that we understand often fall flat and demonstrate the exact opposite–but, rather, by listening to him in a way that he has never been listened to before.

彭譯
我們和分析者得以形成治療的同盟關係,並不是藉由向他表達我們理解他說的話—尤其是當我們已經知道,我們每次嘗試向他傳達理解之意,不是起不了作用,就是適得其反—而是藉由傾聽,以他從未被傾聽過的方式來聽他說話。

雄伯:
analysand 一般譯為「受分析者」,大陸則譯為「參訪者」。彭榮邦演講時,特別解釋,譯為「分析者」,強調拉岡Jacques Lacan,(大陸譯為拉康)的觀點:「受分析者」自己要先能分析自己,「分析師」才有辦法介入。故具有「主動」意味,不完全是「被動」。

we build an alliance with him 我們和分析者得以形成治療的同盟關係。這個we 指的是analysts 「分析師」。英文沒有「治療的」,譯者自加,大概是為了幫助理解。

but, rather, by listening to him in a way that he has never been listened to before.
而是藉由傾聽,以他從未被傾聽過的方式來聽他說話。

Rather 有「相反地」的意思,被漏譯。

「以他從未被傾聽過的方式來聽他說話」是什麼意思?分析師的傾聽跟情侶,朋友,同事,及家人之間的傾聽有什麼不同?為什麼有感情關係的人無法擁有這樣的傾聽?而花錢去參訪的「分析師」才能以這樣的方式傾聽?連「傾聽」都要花錢才能買到,這樣的世界,你我沒錢時,要怎麼活?

especially given the fact that our attempts to show him that we understand often fall flat and demonstrate the exact opposite

彭譯
尤其是當我們已經知道,我們每次嘗試向他傳達理解之意,不是起不了作用,就是適得其反

雄伯
given that 的意思是「假如我們考慮到」if one take into account ,不是「當我們已經知道」。

Fall flat 「沒有效用」「起不了作用」 have no effect,主詞是前面的attempts「嘗試」 ,to show him that we understand 是不定詞片語,形容詞片語,修飾attempts。

demonstrate the exact opposite 證明「恰恰相反」。Demonstrate 被漏譯。

雄伯
布魯斯 芬克 BRUCE FINK 的「精神分析技術的基本原則」 The Fundamentals of Psychoanalytic Technique,我才譯了幾頁,讀書會的C,就給我一份彭榮邦教授的翻譯手稿。由於彭教授的翻譯相當精確,而且文詞順暢,我再重譯似乎沒有什麼意義。於是臨機一動,改為注釋與對照。

32hsiung@pchome.com.tw
https://springhero.wordpress.com

傾聽

June 12, 2011

第一章:傾聽
1
THE PSYCHOANALYSTS first task is to listen and to listen carefuIly.
精神分析的首要任務是傾聽,而且要仔細地傾聽。
雄伯
The PSYCHOANALYSTS 是精神分析師,psychoanalysis 才是精神分析

Although this has been emphasized by many authors, there are surprisingly few good listeners in the psychotherapeutic world.

雖然這已被諸多作者強調過了,但很讓人吃驚的是在心理治療界很少有好的傾聽者。

雄伯
雖然這一點已經被諸多作者強調過了,但很讓人吃驚的是,在心理治療界,善解人意的傾聽者還是很少。

Why is that? There are several reasons, some of which are primarily personal and others of which are more structural, but one of the most important reasons is that we tend to hear everything in relation to ourselves.

為什麼?有諸多緣由,他們中有些(傾聽)主要以個人化而其他的則是更多結構化,但是最為首要的原因是我們傾向於聽那些與我們自身相關的那一切。

雄伯
為什麼會這樣呢?有諸多緣由。有些緣由主要是個人的緣由;還有些緣由,則是結構上的緣由。但是其中最重要的緣由是,我們傾向於聽到跟我們有關的一切。

1
Some of which ,others of which 的 which 指的是前面的reasons ,而不是「傾聽」。

When someone tells us a story, we think of similar stories (or more extreme stories) we ourselves could tell in turn.

當某個人向我們講述一個故事,我們就想到反過來我們可能講的類似故事(或者更為極端的故事)。

We start thinking about things that have happened to us that allow us to “relate to” the other person’s experience, to “know” what it must have been like, or at least to imagine how we ourselves would have felt had we been in the other person’s shoes.
我們開始思考已經發生在我們身上允許我們進行“關聯”他人經歷、“瞭解”必然相似的、或至少想像我們自身如何穿著別人的鞋子來感受的那些東西。

雄伯:
我們開始思考曾經發生在我們身上的事情。這些事情讓我們能夠「瞭解」另外一個人的經驗,能夠「知道」那個經驗當時一定像個什麼樣子,或至少能夠想像,假如我們站在另外一個人的立場,設身處地想,我們自己本來會上什麼感覺。
1
that allow us to “relate to” the other person’s experience, to “know” what it must have been like, or at least to imagine how we ourselves would have felt had we been in the other person’s shoes.
that 是關係代名詞,代替前面的things ,充當allow 的主詞,that 引導後面的形容詞子句,修飾前面的things。

2
allow 這裏的意思不是「允許」,而是「使能夠」make it possible
These things allow us to “relate to” the other person’s experience。
= These things make it possible for us to “ relate to” the other person’s experience.
= Because of these things, we are able to “ relate to” the other person’s experience.
這些事情讓我們能夠「瞭解」另外一個人的經驗。

These things allow us to “know” what it must have been like.
= These things make it possible for us to “ know “ what it must have been like.
= Because of these things, we are able to “ know” what it must have been like.
這些事情讓我們能夠「知道」那個經驗當時一定像個什麼樣子。

These things allow us at least to imagine how we ourselves would have felt had we been in the other person’s shoes.
= These things allow us at least to imagine how we ourselves would have felt if we had been in the other person’s shoes.
= Because of things, we are at least able to imagine how we ourselves would have been if we had been in the other’s shoes.
或這些事情至少讓我們能夠想像,假如我們站在另外一個人的立場,設身處地想,我們自己本來會上什麼感覺。

3
In someone’s shoes—in someone’s position or situation
站在某一個人的立場,設身處地想
If I were in his shoes, I would ask for more money.
= Were I in his shoes, I would ask for money.
假如我處於他的立場,我會要求更多的錢。
(這一句是現在事實相反的虛擬語氣,If 裏面的動詞,不管第幾人稱,都用 were。If 省略時,I were 要倒轉成 were I,主要主句則是用would + 原形動詞。)
If we had been in the other’s shoes,we ourselves would have felt disappointed
= Had we been in the other’s shoes,we ourselves would have felt disappointed
假如我們當時站在另外一個人的立場來設想,我們自己本來會很失望。
(這一句是過去事實相反的虛擬語氣,if 裏面的時態用過去完成式 had been ,if 省略時,we had been 要倒轉成為 had we been,主要主句則是would +完成式。)

4
the other 是「另外一個人」,others 才是「他人」或「別人」。
5
“ relate to ” 在這裏的意思是「能夠瞭解或同情」to be able to understand and have sympathy with something or someone( 見牛津字典 Oxford Advanced Learner dictionary)

6
In other words, our usual way of listening is centered to a great degree on ourselves, our own similar life experiences, our own similar feelings, our own perspectives.
換句話說,我們通常傾聽的方式集中于大量我們自身相似的人生經歷,我們自己類似的感受,我們自己的視角。

雄伯
換句話說,我們通常傾聽的方式,很大比率是專注於我們自己,我們自己類似的人生經驗,我們類似的感覺,我們類似的觀點。

我建議你先將初譯稿中英對照貼上來,讓大家討論。這樣正式出版時,才能減少讓人批評的地方。

雄伯
32hsiung@pchme.com.tw

雄伯手记100602

June 3, 2011

雄伯手记100602

最近在大陆的心理諮询网页,跟荣格的「心理治疗实践」的中译者Michael先生,讨论译文的贴切问题。原先以为清楚明白的问题,竟然彼此缠斗将近二十回合。真是让我感喟良深:客观的可用学理及字典验证的知识的沟通,都如此坎坷。我心目中一直响往的各自主观的心灵交流或灵魂契合,何日可待?

第一回合

What was a normal goal for the young man becomes a neurotic hindrance to the old—just as, through his hesitation to face the world, the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life.
A. 对年轻人而言很正常的目标,对年长人而言,则变成了一种阻碍,成为导致神经症的原因年轻人若逃避生活,过于依赖父母而不敢自己 来面对一切,会渐渐变为一种乱伦关系,生活就会受到损害、阻碍。
B. 正如年轻人的神经官能症患者,由于畏惧面对人生,原先对于父母的依赖,会变成对于生活有害的乱伦关系。对于老年人,年轻时代原先正常的目标,也变成是一种神经官能症的障碍。

雄伯
What was a normal goal for the young man becomes a neurotic hindrance to the old.
对于老年人,年轻时代的正常目标,变成了一种神经官能症的障碍。
这个句子的主词是 what was a normal goal for the young man,其中的what 是关系代名词,一方面引导名词子句,充当 becomes 的主词,另一方面what 本身又充当was 的主词。 例句:
What was a small village ten years ago has developed into a prosperous city. 十年前的小籿莊,现在已经发展成为一个繁荣的都市。
Inimical —harmful 有害的 Grow into—become 变成为
Through his hesitation to face the world由于畏惧面对人生

第二回合
What was a normal goal for the young man becomes a neurotic hindrance to the old—just as, through his hesitation to face the world, the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life.
A. 对年轻人而言很正常的目标,对年长人而言,则变成了一种阻碍,成为导致神经症的原因。年轻人若逃避生活,过于依赖父母而不敢自己 来面对一切,会渐渐变为一种乱伦关系,生活就会受到损害、阻碍。
B. 正如年轻人的神经官能症患者,由于畏惧面对人生,原先对于父母的依赖,会变成对于生活有害的乱伦关系。对于老年人,年轻时代原先正常的目标,也变成是一种神经官能症的障碍。
C 对年轻人来说是正常目标,对老年人则变成了一种神经症性的妨碍——正如,年轻的神经症者本来对父母正常的依赖,通过他犹豫面对世界,生长为一种对生活有害的乱伦关系一样。
D 对年轻人来说是正常的目标,而对老年人则变成一种神经症性的妨碍——正如,年轻的神经症患者因为不愿面对世界,其原先对父母的正常依赖变成了一种对生活有害的乱伦关系一样。

第三回合
老猪也来
the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life.

年轻的神经官能症患者,起初对其父母正常依赖,逐渐步入一种乱伦关系,这对人生是有害。

雄伯
我常看到的是:关系步入正常轨道或正常阶段。
但是「步入关系」是很奇怪的说法。能否请老猪多举几个例子,指点一下?

Ocean
老猪说的这个“步入”其实就是“进入”的意思,呵呵,好玩

雄伯再来:

既然好玩,雄伯就跟你们再玩!

grow into 在英文词典的解释是 become (变成为)。在英文文法,grow into 跟 become 都是连缀动词linking verb。也就是它们后面接的是主词补语subjective complement,而不是受词object,或是「宾语」

主词补语跟受词或「宾语」的差别,我举简单的例子说明:

A. He becomes an artist. 他成为一位艺术家。
B. He admires that artist. 他崇拜那位艺术家。

A句的an artist 是主词补语,因为artist 跟he 指的是同一个人。修饰或相等于主词,故称主词补语。
B 句的that artist 是受词或「宾语」,因为that artist 与he 分属两个人。

C. The young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life.

C这个句子的主词是The young neurotic’s originally normal dependence,而an incest-relationship that is inimical to life. 是主词补语,而不是受词。因为不仅grows into (becomes)是连缀动词,从意义来说,「年轻神经症患者原先对父母的正常依赖」转变成为「乱伦关系」。从英文的原意,「正常依赖」等于是「乱伦关系」。所以是主词补语,而不是受词或「宾语」。

假如你将grows into 翻译为「逐渐步入」或「逐渐进入」,句子会变成是主词与受词或宾语的关系,而扭曲英文的原意。何况grows into 的英文原意,也没有「逐渐步入」或「逐渐进入」之解。

另外,就中文的词类搭配collocation而言,「逐渐步人」与「关系」也不搭调。
我们可以说:中美关系「逐渐步人」一个正常的轨道,阶段,状况,或时期。
但是说:我们「逐渐步人」中美关系,听起来,就有点怪怪。不知大陆语词是否另有不同,能否举些例子,开导我一下。

第四回合
10
What was a normal goal for the young man becomes a neurotic hindrance to the old—just as, through his hesitation to face the world, the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life.
A. 对年轻人而言很正常的目标,对年长人而言,则变成了一种阻碍,成为导致神经症的原因。年轻人若逃避生活,过于依赖父母而不敢自己 来面对一切,会渐渐变为一种乱伦关系,生活就会受到损害、阻碍。
B. 正如年轻人的神经官能症患者,由于畏惧面对人生,原先对于父母的依赖,会变成对于生活有害的乱伦关系。对于老年人,年轻时代原先正常的目标,也变成是一种神经官能症的障碍。
C 对年轻人来说是正常目标,对老年人则变成了一种神经症性的妨碍——正如,年轻的神经症者本来对父母正常的依赖,通过他犹豫面对世界,生长为一种对生活有害的乱伦关系一样。
D 对年轻人来说是正常的目标,而对老年人则变成一种神经症性的妨碍——正如,年轻的神经症患者因为不愿面对世界,其原先对父母的正常依赖变成了一种对生活有害的乱伦关系一样。

雄伯再玩:

A
Just as most of us eat too much, so most of us sleep too much.
Most of us sleep too much, just as most of us eat too much.
大多数人睡眠的时间过长,正如大多数人吃得太多一样。
(Most of us sleep too much是主要子句,而just as most of us eat too much.是附属子句,表示样态manner。 Just as 是连接词,引导most of us eat too much.)

B
What was a normal goal for the young man becomes a neurotic hindrance to the old—just as, through his hesitation to face the world, the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life.
= just as, through his hesitation to face the world, the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life, so what was a normal goal for the young man becomes a neurotic hindrance to the old–

B句跟A句的句型是一样,只是较复杂些,容易引起混淆。

首先,just as the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life 是附属子句,表样态manner ,just as 是连接词,引导附属子句the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life,修饰前面主要主句

雄伯译为「正如年轻人的神经官能症患者,由于畏惧面对人生,原先对于父母的依赖,会变成对于生活有害的乱伦关系。」是符合英文的原来句法。

而C 与D 的翻译,却将such as 独立译为「正如」,无形中such as 变成副词,这不仅违背英文文法及原有意涵,也使主要子句与附属子句的从属关系,混淆不清。不知是正如前面句子?还是正如后面句子?

第六回合

Michael
先看看德文再说
What was a normal goal for the young man becomes a neurotic hindrance to the old—just as, through his hesitation to face the world, the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life.
德:Was dem Jungen einst nomales Ziel war , wird dem Alten neurotisches Hemmnis ; genau so , wie sich durch das Zoegern des jungen Neurotikers seine ursspruenglich normale Abhaengigkeit von den Eltern in ein lebenswidriges Inzestverhaeltnis umkehrt .

第七回合
Michael

上一句中durch对应英文through
through在英文中有because of 的意思,用在此一句似乎也能说通。
那么durch在的德文中有“因为”这个意思吗?似乎没有。
见下杜登-牛津德英词典
durch /¤Š²’/
1. Präp. mit Akk.
a) (räumlich) through; durch die Straßen/die Stadt bummeln stroll through the streets/the town; durch ganz Europa reisen travel all over or throughout Europe; durch einen Fluss waten wade across a river; s. auch Kopf;
b) (modal) by; etw. durch Boten/die Post schicken send sth. by courier/post (Brit.) or mail; etw. durch Lautsprecher/das Fernsehen bekannt geben announce sth. over the loudspeakers/on television; sie ist durch das Fernsehen bekannt geworden she became famous through television; etw. durch jmdn. bekommen get or obtain sth. through sb.; zehn [geteilt] durch zwei ten divided by two;
c) (österr.: zeitlich) durch Wochen/Jahre for weeks/years; durch sein ganzes Leben throughout or all his life.

第八回合

雄伯

能否请Michael 再琢磨一下,「依赖」如何「生长为」,译为「变成」或「发展成为」,是不是更贴切?
_斟酌过了,见下 牛津双解,grow into 翻译为”生长为“”成长为“更贴切,”变成”是becoming ,”发展成为”是develop into.可以这么翻译,不影响原意,但是我认为不”贴“。
继承用法
grow into
become as a result of natural development or gradual increase
成长(或发展)为
Barrow-in-Furness grew into a fishing village of about three hundred people by the 1840s.
到19世纪40年代巴洛因弗内斯发展成了一个约有300人的渔村。
■become large enough to wear (a garment) comfortably.
长大到适合穿(某件衣服)

第九回合
Michael

just as+逗号, 就是德文中 genau so +逗号一样,就是作为副词用的,而不是连词,A,B 两译 都在这里当做连词翻译了,而且b译”连“得更厉害些。
这样一样,句义是更加清楚了。
这种追求清楚的翻译,在我看来,科普翻译可以,但是学术翻译,尤其是名著翻译,不恰当。
荣格当初写的时候,并没有那么清楚的句义的,Hull翻译英文时,也没有把这里本来不清楚的地方,翻译”清楚了。
我们应该向英文译者学习,不清楚的地方就要翻译得不清楚。
自己把它“理解”清楚了,这就写进译者注中。而不要变成译文本身。

第十回合
Michael
上一句中durch对应英文through
through在英文中有because of 的意思,用在此一句似乎也能说通。
那么durch在的德文中有“因为”这个意思吗?似乎没有。

雄伯引用解释
Preposition
durch (+ accusative)
1. by means of; by; through
2. through; entering, then exiting
3. via
4. owing to; because of
5. (mathematics) divided by

a) durch
durch是要配合akk受格使用。主要表達兩種意思:
1.表主觀努力通過某種手段而達到目的
比方說:
Durch fleißige Mitarbeit erreichte er bald ein höheres Niveau.
或 Er muss seinen Lebensunterhalt durch Handarbeit verdienen.

2.也可以表被動態的一些實際原因
比方說:
Die Stadt Tangshan wurde durch ein Erdbeben zerstört.

第十回合

Michael
just as+逗号, 就是德文中 genau so +逗号一样,就是作为副词用的,而不是连词,A,B 两译 都在这里当做连词翻译了,而且b译”连“得更厉害些。
这样一样,句义是更加清楚了。
这种追求清楚的翻译,在我看来,科普翻译可以,但是学术翻译,尤其是名著翻译,不恰当。
荣格当初写的时候,并没有那么清楚的句义的,Hull翻译英文时,也没有把这里本来不清楚的地方,翻译”清楚了。
我们应该向英文译者学习,不清楚的地方就要翻译得不清楚。
自己把它“理解”清楚了,这就写进译者注中。而不要变成译文本身。

雄伯

What was a normal goal for the young man becomes a neurotic hindrance to the old—just as, through his hesitation to face the world, the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life.

just as 的后面虽然打逗点,那是因为中间插入一个介系词片语through his hesitation to face the world,不是因为有了逗点,它就会变成副词。just as 在这里,只有当连接词用,不可能当副词用, 否则会形成前后两个句子, 没有连接词连接。至于德文的genau so 可以当副词用,那是另外一回事。英文译者翻译得很清楚!

10
What was a normal goal for the young man becomes a neurotic hindrance to the old—just as, through his hesitation to face the world, the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life.
A. 对年轻人而言很正常的目标,对年长人而言,则变成了一种阻碍,成为导致神经症的原因。年轻人若逃避生活,过于依赖父母而不敢自己 来面对一切,会渐渐变为一种乱伦关系,生活就会受到损害、阻碍。
B. 正如年轻人的神经官能症患者,由于畏惧面对人生,原先对于父母的依赖,会变成对于生活有害的乱伦关系。对于老年人,年轻时代原先正常的目标,也变成是一种神经官能症的障碍。
C 对年轻人来说是正常目标,对老年人则变成了一种神经症性的妨碍——正如,年轻的神经症者本来对父母正常的依赖,通过他犹豫面对世界,生长为一种对生活有害的乱伦关系一样。
D 对年轻人来说是正常的目标,而对老年人则变成一种神经症性的妨碍——正如,年轻的神经症患者因为不愿面对世界,其原先对父母的正常依赖变成了一种对生活有害的乱伦关系一样。

雄伯再玩:

A
Just as most of us eat too much, so most of us sleep too much.
Most of us sleep too much, just as most of us eat too much.
大多数人睡眠的时间过长,正如大多数人吃得太多一样。
(Most of us sleep too much是主要子句,而just as most of us eat too much.是附属子句,表示样态manner。 Just as 是连接词,引导most of us eat too much.)

B
What was a normal goal for the young man becomes a neurotic hindrance to the old—just as, through his hesitation to face the world, the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life.
= just as, through his hesitation to face the world, the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life, so what was a normal goal for the young man becomes a neurotic hindrance to the old–

B句跟A句的句型是一样,只是较复杂些,容易引起混淆。

首先,just as the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life 是附属子句,表样态manner ,just as 是连接词,引导附属子句the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life,修饰前面主要主句

雄伯译为「正如年轻人的神经官能症患者,由于畏惧面对人生,原先对于父母的依赖,会变成对于生活有害的乱伦关系。」是符合英文的原来句法。

而C 与D 的翻译,却将just as 独立译为「正如」,无形中just as 变成副词,这不仅违背英文文法及原有意涵,也使主要子句与附属子句的从属关系,混淆不清。不知是正如前面句子?还是正如后面句子?

第十一回合
本帖最后由 springherohsiun 于 2011-5-27 23:37 编辑

雄伯

能否请Michael 再琢磨一下,「依赖」如何「生长为」,译为「变成」或「发展成为」,是不是更贴切?

Michael

_斟酌过了,见下 牛津双解,grow into 翻译为”生长为“”成长为“更贴切,”变成”是becoming ,”发展成为”是develop into.可以这么翻译,不影响原意,但是我认为不”贴“。
继承用法
grow into
become as a result of natural development or gradual increase
成长(或发展)为
Barrow-in-Furness grew into a fishing village of about three hundred people by the 1840s.
到19世纪40年代巴洛因弗内斯发展成了一个约有300人的渔村。
■become large enough to wear (a garment) comfortably.
长大到适合穿(某件衣服)

雄伯

我的问题重点是,从中文的词类搭配collocation而言,你可以说,人,动物,或植物「生长为」。但是说,作为一个抽象名词的「依赖」「生长为」或「成长为」,我总是觉得怪怪的。

the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life.
雄伯譯:年輕人的神經官能症患者,原先對於父母正常的依賴,會變成對於生活有害的亂倫關係。
Michael譯:年輕的神經症者本來對父母正常的依賴,生長為一種對生活有害的亂倫關係一樣。,

第十二回合
Michael
简明英汉词典
just as
adv.
正像
这说明简明英汉词典的编者认为just as 是作为副词的。

durch 的几个用法中的确有because of , 那么翻译为:”由于“也可以。
请仍然标明,这个诠释来自何处 ?这样才可以判断这种释义可信程度如何?

雄伯
我的问题重点是,从中文的词类搭配collocation而言,你可以说,人,动物,或植物「生长为」。但是说,作为一个抽象名词的「依赖」「生长为」或「成长为」,我总是觉得怪怪的。

Michael
——可是我不觉得怪啊。
模仿一下老张和老雄口气,反问一声:” 你为何不知道我的感觉和你不一样呢?“
”你为何要问我,你为何会产生各种各样的感受呢?“

第十三回合

雄伯

Just as

A. He is as honest as you.
他像你一样诚实。

B. He is just as honest as you
他就像你一样诚实。

在A句与B句,前面as或 just as 都是副词用法, 修饰honest。

C. You speak frankly;similarly, he speaks frankly.
你坦诚说话;同样地,他也坦诚说话。
D. You speak frankly; just as, he speaks frankly
你坦诚说话;如同,他也坦诚说话。
E. He speaks frankly just as you do.
正如你说话坦诚,他说话也坦诚。

C句的similarly 是副词,E句的just as 是连接词,引导you do,充当附属子句,表样态manner。D句的just as 后面若是打逗号,充当副词用,绝对是错误的英文用法。

durch
Definition from Wiktionary, the free dictionary
Jump to: navigation, search
[edit] German
[edit] Etymology
Old High German duruh, akin to Old English thuru.
[edit] Pronunciation

audio (Austria)

(file)

[edit] Preposition
durch (+ accusative)
1. by means of; by; through
2. through; entering, then exiting
3. via
4. owing to; because of
5. (mathematics) divided by

十四回合

Michael
维基词典,我认为不能作为规范德语词典使用。

just as 可以作为副词,我已经举出了词典编撰者的说法,如果再辩论,那请找语言学家辩论吧。
回到原句,我认为just as , 翻译成“正如,”或“同样,”是很好的译法。
b译把原文句子结构改了,句子中增加了一些自己的词。我是不采纳的。

十五回合

Michael
另外,这句中through 到底是because of(由于) , 还是by means of(通过)的意思呢?
德文durch有”由于“的意思,在两本德汉词典上也看到了。

十六回合

雄伯
请回到问题的原点:

What was a normal goal for the young man becomes a neurotic hindrance to the old—just as, through his hesitation to face the world, the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life.

A. 对年轻人而言很正常的目标,对年长人而言,则变成了一种阻碍,成为导致神经症的原因。年轻人若逃避生活,过于依赖父母而不敢自己 来面对一切,会渐渐变为一种乱伦关系,生活就会受到损害、阻碍。
B. 正如年轻人的神经官能症患者,由于畏惧面对人生,原先对于父母的依赖,会变成对于生活有害的乱伦关系。对于老年人,年轻时代原先正常的目标,也变成是一种神经官能症的障碍。
C 对年轻人来说是正常目标,对老年人则变成了一种神经症性的妨碍——正如,年轻的神经症者本来对父母正常的依赖,通过他犹豫面对世界,生长为一种对生活有害的乱伦关系一样。
D 对年轻人来说是正常的目标,而对老年人则变成一种神经症性的妨碍——正如,年轻的神经症患者因为不愿面对世界,其原先对父母的正常依赖变成了一种对生活有害的乱伦关系一样。

雄伯

B译为:由于畏惧面对人生
D译为:因为不愿面对世界
C 译为:通过他犹豫面对世界

光是从中文的顺畅来看
B译的「由于」,跟D译的「因为」,难道不是比C译的「通过」更加清楚明白?

何况,从英文的结构来看
Through 在这里当because of 解释,肯定是比当by means of 合理明白。

十七回合

Michael

B译为:由于畏惧面对人生
D译为:因为不愿面对世界
C 译为:通过他犹豫面对世界

光是从中文的顺畅来看
B译的「由于」,跟D译的「因为」,难道不是比C译的「通过」更加清楚明白?
——不比啊,这三个都是介词,一样清楚明白的。

何况,从英文的结构来看
Through 在这里当because of 解释,肯定是比当by means of 合理明白。
——请教一下,什么结构决定了through在这里做because of 而不是by means of ??

顺便说一句,英文中face the world 是Hull 自己加上的,荣格原文没有喔。

十八回合

Michael
因为……、通过……、由于……,这三个中文词的区别和联系是什么呢?

十九回合

雄伯

「因为」「由于」都差不多,就像英文的because of,owing to,但是through 的「因为」,比较强调「过失」「错误」的原因。如,The accident happened through no fault of mine. (意外发生,不是由于我的过失。)

「通过」在英文常用through (透过),by means of (憑藉着)或by +ing 动词来表达,强调「方法」「手段」「工具」「媒介」「途径」等。即使在「宝宝是通过生病获得免疫力」的句子里,「通过」强调的是「获得免疫力」的「媒介」,而不是「原因」。

或者,大陆的习惯用法,是将「通过」当着是「因为」在使用,Michael 才会一直感到混淆?

Through

May 26, 2011

Through

Through—because of 因為,由於
The accident happened through no fault of mine.
意外發生,不是由於我的過失。
They are understood to have retired through age or ill health.
據瞭解,他們退休是由於年紀大或健康不佳。
The thought of someone suffering through a mistake of me makes me shiver.
想到有人由於我的錯誤而遭受痛苦,我就不寒而慄。

Through his hesitation to face the world,
雄伯譯:由於畏懼面對人生
Michael譯:通過他猶豫面對世界

Grow into—to become ( someone or something ) as one gets older or bigger
Steve has grown into an artist.
史提夫已經成為一位藝術家。
Jim’s father’s firm has slowly grown into a profitable business.
吉姆父親的公司慢慢發展成為有利潤的生意。

the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life.
雄伯譯:年輕人的神經官能症患者,原先對於父母的依賴,會變成對於生活有害的亂倫關係。
Michael譯:年輕的神經症者本來對父母正常的依賴,生長為一種對生活有害的亂倫關係一樣。,

能否請Michael 再琢磨一下,「依賴」如何「生長為」,譯為「變成」或「發展成為」,是不是更貼切?

10
What was a normal goal for the young man becomes a neurotic hindrance to the old—just as, through his hesitation to face the world, the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life.
A. 對年輕人而言很正常的目標,對年長人而言,則變成了一種阻礙,成為導致神經症的原因。年輕人若逃避生活,過於依賴父母而不敢自己 來面對一切,會漸漸變為一種亂倫關係,生活就會受到損害、阻礙。
B. 正如年輕人的神經官能症患者,由於畏懼面對人生,原先對於父母的依賴,會變成對於生活有害的亂倫關係。對於老年人,年輕時代原先正常的目標,也變成是一種神經官能症的障礙。
C 對年輕人來說是正常目標,對老年人則變成了一種神經症性的妨礙——正如,年輕的神經症者本來對父母正常的依賴,通過他猶豫面對世界,生長為一種對生活有害的亂倫關係一樣。,

老豬也來
the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life.

年輕的神經官能症患者,起初對其父母正常依賴,逐漸步入一種亂倫關係,這對人生是有害。

雄伯
我常看到的是:關係步入正常軌道或正常階段。
但是「步入關係」是很奇怪的說法。能否請老豬多舉幾個例子,指點一下?

Ocean
老豬說的這個“步入”其實就是“進入”的意思,呵呵,好玩

雄伯再來:

既然好玩,雄伯就跟你們再玩!

grow into 在英文詞典的解釋是 become (變成為)。在英文文法,grow into 跟 become 都是連綴動詞linking verb。也就是它們後面接的是主詞補語subjective complement,而不是受詞object,或是「賓語」

主詞補語跟受詞或「賓語」的差別,我舉簡單的例子說明:

A. He becomes an artist. 他成為一位藝術家。
B. He admires that artist. 他崇拜那位藝術家。

A句的an artist 是主詞補語,因為artist 跟he 指的是同一個人。修飾或相等於主詞,故稱主詞補語。
B 句的that artist 是受詞或「賓語」,因為that artist 與he 分屬兩個人。

C. The young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life.

C這個句子的主詞是The young neurotic’s originally normal dependence,而an incest-relationship that is inimical to life. 是主詞補語,而不是受詞。因為不僅grows into (becomes)是連綴動詞,從意義來說,「年輕神經症患者原先對父母的正常依賴」轉變成為「亂倫關係」。從英文的原意,「正常依賴」等於是「亂倫關係」。所以是主詞補語,而不是受詞或「賓語」。

假如你將grows into 翻譯為「逐漸步入」或「逐漸進入」,句子會變成是主詞與受詞或賓語的關係,而扭曲英文的原意。何況grows into 的英文原意,也沒有「逐漸步入」或「逐漸進入」之解。

另外,就中文的詞類搭配collocation而言,「逐漸步人」與「關係」也不搭調。
我們可以說:中美關係「逐漸步人」一個正常的軌道,階段,狀況,或時期。
但是說:我們「逐漸步人」中美關係,聽起來,就有點怪怪。不知大陸語詞是否另有不同,能否舉些例子,開導我一下。
10
What was a normal goal for the young man becomes a neurotic hindrance to the old—just as, through his hesitation to face the world, the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life.
A. 對年輕人而言很正常的目標,對年長人而言,則變成了一種阻礙,成為導致神經症的原因。年輕人若逃避生活,過於依賴父母而不敢自己 來面對一切,會漸漸變為一種亂倫關係,生活就會受到損害、阻礙。
B. 正如年輕人的神經官能症患者,由於畏懼面對人生,原先對於父母的依賴,會變成對於生活有害的亂倫關係。對於老年人,年輕時代原先正常的目標,也變成是一種神經官能症的障礙。
C 對年輕人來說是正常目標,對老年人則變成了一種神經症性的妨礙——正如,年輕的神經症者本來對父母正常的依賴,通過他猶豫面對世界,生長為一種對生活有害的亂倫關係一樣。
D 對年輕人來說是正常的目標,而對老年人則變成一種神經症性的妨礙——正如,年輕的神經症患者因為不願面對世界,其原先對父母的正常依賴變成了一種對生活有害的亂倫關係一樣。

雄伯再玩:

A
Just as most of us eat too much, so most of sleep too much.
Most of us sleep too much, just as most of us eat too much.
大多數人睡眠的時間過長,正如大多數人吃得太多一樣。
(Most of us sleep too much是主要子句,而just as most of us eat too much.是附屬子句,表示樣態manner。 Just as 是連接詞,引導most of us eat too much.)

B
What was a normal goal for the young man becomes a neurotic hindrance to the old—just as, through his hesitation to face the world, the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life.
= just as, through his hesitation to face the world, the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life, so what was a normal goal for the young man becomes a neurotic hindrance to the old–

B句跟A句的句型是一樣,只是較複雜些,容易引起混淆。

首先,just as the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life 是附屬子句,表樣態manner ,just as 是連接詞,引導附屬子句the young neurotic’s originally normal dependence on his parents grows into an incest-relationship that is inimical to life,修飾前面主要主句

雄伯譯為「正如年輕人的神經官能症患者,由於畏懼面對人生,原先對於父母的依賴,會變成對於生活有害的亂倫關係。」是符合英文的原來句法。

而C 與D 的翻譯,卻將such as 獨立譯為「正如」,無形中such as 變成副詞,這不僅違背英文文法及原有意涵,也使主要子句與附屬主句的從屬關係,混淆不清。(不知是正如前面?還是正如後面?)

我希望

April 28, 2011

我希望

人們常問 應該找個什麼樣的伴侶呢
我說

我希望 她
和我一樣
胸中有血
心頭有傷

This I Hope

When asked what partner I am expecting,
I answer:

I hope she has the same
Fibers as well as I do
Blood burning in bosom,
Wound suffering in heart

要窮 窮得象茶
苦中一縷清香
要傲 傲得象蘭
高掛一臉秋霜

In spite of being poor, we are like tea,
Tasting bitter, but smelling fragrant
When self-assured, we are like orchids
Enduring winter frost without bending

我們一樣 就敢在暗夜裏
徘徊在白色的墳場
傾聽鴟梟的慘笑
追逐那飄移的螢光

On drear dark nights,she dares
Like me, lingering on the pallid grave,
Listening to the laughter of the night hawk
Pursuing the floating sulfur light

我們一樣 就敢劃起一葉咿呀的扁舟
去探索遙遠的海港
任憑風如喪鐘
霧似飛網

Sailing on a dilapidating boat,
Beyond the remote horizon, we explore
With a gale tolling like the bell,
Caught in a net of heavy mist,
We fear not.

我們一樣 就敢在泥沼裏
種下松籽 要它成梁
我們一樣 就敢挽起朝暉
踩著鮮花 走向死亡
雖然我只是一粒芝麻
被風吹離了莖的故鄉
遠別雲雀婉囀的歌喉
遠別玫瑰迷人的芬芳

Still struggling in a swamp,
We are  sowing the seed for rebirth
Against the sun dawning,flowers in bloom,
We are advancing in defiance of death
Though I am but a little sesame
Blown away from my rooted place
Adieu! Chirruping skylark !
Adieu! Sweet-smelling rose !

我相信 一定有另一顆芝麻
和我一樣 躺在風風雨雨的大地上
我們雖未相識 但我終極樂觀
因為我們頂的是同一輪太陽

I believe that there exists another seed of sesame
Fighting for its soul dignity on the stormy earth
Though unacquainted, we are closest to each other,
Convinced we are sharing the cherished desire.

就這樣 在漫天的星雲裏
去尋找那粒閃爍的微光
就這樣 在蔽日的密林中
去辨認那片模糊的葉掌我希望

Amid the cloudy night skies
That flickering twilight, we are expecting
Amid the heavy and gloomy forests
That leaf of life we are identifying
This I hope

黃蓓佳詩
雄伯試譯
歡迎潤飾及訂正
32hsiung@pchome.com.tw
https://springhero.wordpress.com

Ocean 04

April 20, 2011

雄伯手记100417c

Ocean:

这其中提到了“婴儿对于父亲的死亡的欲望的痕迹”,给我印象颇深。
“the traces of the
Oedipus complex, of the infantile desire for the death of the father,” in the paragraph above made deep impression on me.

雄伯:
“ The traces of the Oedipus complex, of the infantile desire for the death of the father,” in the paragraph above, made a deep impression on me.

Ocean:

第二天,也就是12号中午,我收到一法国朋友的邮件,说她父亲11号在秘鲁去世了,终年82岁,她要去秘鲁一段时间。看到那封邮件,我脑中首先冒出来的便是上面提到的那句话。巧合啊巧合!

On the following day,i.e.,April 12th, I received the email of a French friend who told me that her father died in Peru on April 11th at the age of 82 and she would go to Peru for some time. The sentences above occured to me immediately soon after I read the email. Coincidence, oh, coincidence!

雄伯译:
The following day, April, 11th , I received an email from a French friend, who informed me of her father’s death at the age of 83, in Peru on April 11th . Therefore, she would go to Peru and stay there for some time. The sentences above occurred to me immediately after I read the email. What a coincidence !

Ocean:

人的一生有无数的分离,而死亡是最后一次分离,一种永远的分离。
There are numerous separations during one’s life and death is the final separation, a kind of separation forever.

雄伯:
During our life, we have undergone numerous separations, but the most undesirable of them is death, which is doomed.

Ocean:

12号晚上,是那一系列网络小组督导中我主持的最后一次督导。督导结束时,组织者提出希望我能跟大家在一起多呆一段时间用来处理分离,我接受了这个请求, 并与大家分享了我所感受到的一些组员的成长。我喜欢他们每个人,而且非常感谢在整个督导过程中他们的问题和发言所带给我的启示与触动。

On the night of April 12th, I conducted the final group supervision in a series of supervision through internet. The organiser asked me to stay with them for more time at the end of the supervision to deal with separation. I accepted the request and shared the progresses of some members which I felt during those supervisions with them together. I like each of them and appreciate them very much for their questions and words had given me a lot of inspiration and affection.

雄伯:

The night of April 12th was the last time when I conducted a series of group supervisions through the internet. At the end of the supervision, the organizer asked me to stay with them longer to share the progress and transformation of some members. What they responded to my past conducts of group supervision convinced me that my efforts were not in vain.

Ocean:

在面对分离时,照片是一种很有趣的过渡。
It is a kind of interesting transition to make use of photos when facing separation.

雄伯:
Photos are a useful medium to help the transition from separation to a new life..

Ocean:
之后我在另一个QQ群里说“我在体验分离焦虑。”
Later I said in another QQ group,” I am experiencing separation anxiety.”

雄伯:
Later I said in another QQ group, “ For the present, I am undergoing an experience of anxiety on separation .”

Ocean 02

April 20, 2011

雄伯手记100417
Ocean
好多年没回母校去看望过了。这一晃都20多年啦,有道是岁月不饶人~
I haven’t gone to see my native school for so many years. And more than 20 years passed by in a twinkle, just like a Chinese saying:” Time is getting.”
雄伯:

For so many years I haven’t been to my hometown to visit my alma mater. It is more than twenty years since I graduated from high school. As a Chinese saying goes, time is fleeting.

have been 表示经验 have gone 表示动作

One day the Giant came back. He had been to visit his friend the Cornish ogre, and stayed with him for seven years.
–Wilde, The Selfish giant

“ Hullo, Nick”, she said, obviously please to him, “ where have you come from?”
“ “ From the station?”
“ Yes, I’ve just been to see my parents off.”

I have just been to see the cherry blossoms at Ueno.
You can not say, “ I’ve just gone to see the cheery blossoms at Ueno.