From an other to the Other 11

From an other to the Other 11
从他者到大他者

Jacques Lacan
雅克 拉康

20.11.68

There is a person, like that, earlier, among those who might instruct themselves a little
bit here and get rid of their nonsense, who left because she finds no doubt that what I
am saying are banalities. Apparently it is necessary to say them; otherwise why
would I take the trouble, after all I have just said, about the fact that a discourse has
consequences or not. It had in any case as a consequence this leaving, which serves
as a signal. This indeed is why it is essential that in psychoanalysis we should have
some minds formed in what is called – 1 do not know why – “mathematical logic”, like
that, through an old constraint, as if there were any other. It is quite simply logic. It
happens that it has interested mathematics.

有一个人,就像那样,早先,就像那些稍微凭借自学成功,废除他们的陈腔滥调。她离开,因为她找不到任何怀疑,我所说的话都说陈腔滥调。显而易见,有必要这样说它们,否则为什么我要花费这个心力?毕竟,我刚刚说过的东西,关于辞说拥有结果与否的这个事实。无论如何,辞说拥有这个离开,作为结果。离开充当一种讯息。这确实是为什么在精神分析,我们有必要培养某些的心态,在所谓的“数学逻辑”—我不知道为什么—像那样,经有古老的约束,好像还有任何其的约束。那仅就是逻辑。偶然,逻辑曾经让数学感到興趣。

This is all that distinguishes it from
Aristotelian logic that very obviously did not interest mathematics. It is a progress for
logic that it interests mathematics, yes! This mathematical logic, to call things by
their name, is altogether essential for your existence; whether you know it or whether
you do not know it. It is precisely because you do not know very much about it that
things happen that stir things up from time to time, very recent things. People are
waiting for me to talk about them, but I will speak about them, I will speak about
them! It all depends on the time that I am going to spend in unfolding what I prepared
for you today and I would like to have a little point, like that, to give you before
leaving you. But it is not sure, because I never know too well. What I bring you is
never absolutely measured out.

这就是区别逻辑与亚里斯多德的逻辑的差异。显而易见地,数学对亚里斯多德的逻辑并不感興趣。逻辑让数学感到興趣确实是个进步。所谓的数理逻辑,对于你们的存在而言,完全是必要的。无论你知道与否,或无论你不知道它。确实是因为你并不知道它,以致于有时会发生扰乱的事情,最近的事情。人们正在等待我们谈论它们。但是我将谈论它们,我将谈论它们!这要看我打算花费多少时间,来展开我今天我为你们准备的东西。我想要稍微表达像那样的一点,在离开你们之前,给予你们一点。但是这并不确实,因为我并十分确定。我带给你们的东西,并没有绝对地被测试过。

That is not where the question is. Whether you know it or whether you do not know
it, the bizarre question is that obviously I have just alluded to the fact, since I told you
that whether you knew it or whether you did not know it, whether it has always been
true that mathematical logic has consequences as regards your existence as a subject,
(25) which I have just said are there whether you know it or whether you do not know
it. Because then the question is posed, of how it could happen before the logic that is
called mathematical came to birth? It is the question of the existence of God. I have
already remarked it but I repeat – one cannot repeat oneself too much – was
mathematical logic already there, in the divine brainbox, before in your existence as a
subject, which would have thus been conditioned from that moment on, you were
already affected by it?

那并不是问题的所在。无论你知道它,或无论你不知道它,这个古怪的问题是,显而易见地,我刚刚提到这个事实。因为我告诉你们,无论你们知道它,或无论你们不知道它,无论这是否总是真实的,数理逻辑拥有一些结果,关于你们作为主体的生命实存。我刚刚说过,这些结果存在那里,无论你们知道它,或你们不知道它。因为那时这个问题被提出,这是如何发生的?这个所谓的“数理”诞生于逻辑之前?这是上帝的存在的问题。我已经谈论过它,但是我重复一遍—我们越是重复我们自己越好。在神性的脑袋里,数理逻辑已经在那里吗?在你们作为主体的存在之前?因此,从那个时刻开始,你们作为主体的存在本来就已经受到制约,你们已经受到它的影响?

It is a problem that has all its importance because it is around this that there takes
effect this advance that a discourse has consequences. Namely, that something close
to the effects of discourse was required for there to be born that of mathematical logic.
And that in any case, even if something could already represent in an existence of a
subject something that retroactively we can attach to some facts in this existence of
the discourse of logic, it is quite clear, it ought to be firmly held that they are not the
same consequences as since this discourse, I mean that of mathematical logic, has
been put forward.

这是一个具有它的重要性的问题。因为环绕这一点,辞说拥有结果的这个进步在那里产生效果。换句话说,某件靠近辞说的效果的东西被要求,为了让数理逻辑的辞说被诞生。无论如何,即使在主体的存在里,某件东西能够已经代表某件东西,我们能够将这个东西跟逻辑的辞说的存在里的某些事实联接一块,那是显而易见,它应该坚定地被认为,它们并不是相同的结果。因为这个辞说已经被提出,我指的是数理逻辑的辞说。

Here there is situated the necessary and the contingent in the discourse that is
effectively held. This indeed is where I have trouble in seeing why the structural
reference is supposed to overlook the dimension of history. It is simply a matter of
knowing what one is talking about! History as it is included in historical materialism
appears to me to conform strictly to structural requirements.

在此。有效地被相信的辞说的必然性与偶然性被定位。这确实是我遭遇困难的地方,当我看见为什么结构的指称被认为是忽略了历史的维度。问题仅是要知道我们正在谈论什么!依照被包含在历史唯物论里的历史,我觉得,严格地跟结构的要求不谋而合。

Was surplus value there
before abstract labour, I mean what this abstraction is separated out from, I mean as a
social means, resulted from something that we will call – 1 am not guaranteeing the
exactitude of the first word but I want to say a word that has weight – the
absolutisation of the market. It is more than probable, and for a good reason which is
that we have, for that, introduced the surplus enjoying. That one can consider that this
absolutisation of the market is only a condition so that surplus value can appear in
discourse.

在抽离出来的劳工之前,剩余价值存在那里吗?我指的是,这个抽离被分开来,我指的是作为社会的工具,它因为某件事情而造成,我们所谓的—我不是正在保证第一个字词的确定性,我想要说一个具有份量的字—市场的绝对真理。这是很有可能的。理由很充分。因为那个理由,我们已经介绍“剩余享乐”。我们能够认为,市场的绝对真理仅是一个条件,为了让剩余价值存在于辞说里。

There was therefore required this thing that can with difficulty be
separated from the development of certain effects of language, namely, the
absolutisation of the market to the point that it encompasses labour itself for surplus
value to be defined in the fact that in paying with money or not, with money because
we are in the market, for labour, its true price, as the function of exchange value is
defined in the market, there is an unpaid value in what appears as the fruit of labour,
in a use value, in what is the true price of this fruit. This unpaid labour, even though
paid in a correct fashion with respect to the consistency of the market, this, in the
functioning of the capitalist subject, this unpaid labour is the surplus value. It is the
fruit of the means of articulation that constitutes the capitalistic discourse from
capitalist logic.

这个东西因此被要求,这个东西很困难被分开,更语言的某些效果的发展分开。换句话说,市场的绝对主义。甚至,它涵盖劳工自身,为了让剩余价就被定义在这个事实:当我们用金钱偿付与否,用金钱,因为我们在市场里。在出现作为劳工的成果的东西,有一个没有偿付的价值,在使用价值,在这个成果的真实的价值的东西。这个没有被偿付的劳工,在资本主义的主体的功能,他即使被偿付,用正确的方式,关于市场的一致性。这个没有被偿付的劳工就是剩余价值。这是表达的工具的成果,这个表达组成资本主义的辞是,用资本主义的逻辑。

雄伯译
32hsiung@pchome.com.tw
https://springhero.wordpress.com

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